18 February 2012 @ 02:52 pm
Unicorns and old music. Starfish and sparrows.  
Also, teddy bears and spiders.

After posting at Fantasy Matters about Madeleine L'Engle, I found myself needing to reread two of my teen touchstone books: L'Engle's A Swiftly Tilting Planet (last weekend) and The Arm of the Starfish (this weekend).

Nothing quite like revisiting early reads to help ground one and return one a little to oneself.

There are about 20 different directions in which I find oneself wanting to start L'Engle discussions now. My burbling about only a few of them is below, but consider this an open thread for any L'Engle discussions you might feel like having, too.

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About gender roles: I was always a little troubled at Meg's role being so deeply curtailed in The Arm of the Starfish, but now I'm noticing how much time Poly--the only one of the O'Keefe children who seems to have active roles to play in her father's work--spends helping with the cooking and childcare, and just how little time the perfectly-competent seeming Charles does. The only other child to do anything in the kitchen is the next girl down, who is four, though there are three boys between her and Poly. And a few other quiet generalizations scattered through. And then A Swiftly Tilting Planet, where no one even really wants to let Meg out of the house, let alone to go on adventures, because she's pregnant, which seems to subsume all other bits of agency even with the world at stake, though somehow in that book, unlike in Arm of the Starfish, her fundamental Meg-ness comes through. Though even when she's fully Meg, in A Wrinkle in Time, everyone's oddly protective of her in a way that one could argue goes beyond her flaws and also relates to her being a girl.

And yet. And yet. As a teen reader I saw none of this. What I saw and remembered and absorbed was Meg's mother, Mrs. Murry, who cooked dinners on bunsen burners because being a mother didn't make her any less a scientist. By A Swiftly Tilting Planet she'd won two Nobel prizes for her work, and throughout her doing that work was taken for granted, enough so that I took it for granted, too. Mrs. Murry was a different sort of role model for me than Meg, but a role model nonetheless.

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About light and dark: I always loved the sense of light shining through darkness in these books, loved it so much it informed my own life and writing--or else affirmed what was already part of same, it's hard to tell. What I remember about A Swiftly Planet is the shining light in it, the world being saved, the bad things not having to happen ... yet rereading it I was struck by how many bad things do happen, how much darkness this is. All four of the stories Charles Wallace becomes a part of end on notes more tragic than not, for all that the greater tragedy is averted. This seems needed, a necessary balance ... but it's fascinating how the tone of the book overall still feels more light than dark, how I always finish this book smiling a little.

I don't finish The Arm of the Starfish smiling. It's a book that makes me cry and cry at the end, in the best of cathartic ways. It influenced my sense of how we act in the world. It also gave me this sense, as a writer, of why sometimes the hard things have to happen in stories, how sometimes that's the right thing to make the story work, because as a reader I never actually wanted to undo any of it, even as I cried.

It's also interesting to realize that the actual outer plot of The Arm of the Starfish can be argued to be a bit simplistic--generally, the people who kidnap children and hire thugs as chauffeurs are not the good guys, but also real bad guys rarely give such clear signs, and lots more people exist somewhere between clearly being on one side or the other--and yet the book itself is about how these things aren't simplistic, and that still comes through, and feels true.

And yet. And yet. The very ending suddenly isn't at all simplistic, and the hard choice made there, the choice to help even those who hurt us, rises out of and maybe needs that very plot, which is the whole reason who does the hurting is clear in the first place. And the book's conviction that we do have to take sides, or at least, choose to care about things, in order to act in the world feels true, too. It's like it's the right sense, only with the lines drawn a little too sharply, until those lines break down, quite effectively and painfully, at the end.

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About favorite books: I used to think A Swiftly Tilting Planet was my favorite teen book. Rereading, it and Arm of the Starfish now feel clearly tied, and I wondered if I chose a favorite in the same way when young one declares one friend one's best friend, even though another friend might be just as good a friend, because as children and teens we believe we're supposed to have favorites and bests.

Mostly, I love the way these long-time companion books make me feel when I read them. A little like I'm swimming in liquid light. I need to remember to reread them more often.

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Like I said--feel free to talk about anything L'Engle-related you'd like to talk about in comments, too.

"It's the fall of the sparrow I care about. But who's the sparrow? We run into problems there, too." --Madeleine L'Engle, The Arm of the Starfish
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( 12 comments — Leave a comment )
Marissa Lingen[info]mrissa on February 18th, 2012 10:27 pm (UTC)
The bunsen burner thing upset me so much when I was a kid, because I am a chemist's daughter, and holy shit you do not eat in the lab. You do not. Not because of some wacky notions of the sacred or masculinity or anything like that. Because of contamination of your food. (Secondarily of your experiments. Seriously. Of your food.) Being a woman and a mom did not make Mrs. Dr. Murry any less a scientist...so she should have known that, if I did at 8 or 9. I find that sort of thing somewhat easier to forgive as an adult than I did as a kid, actually.

But I still loved them. And probably I still do.

I think one of the things about Meg was that I was reading it as a kid born in 1978, and I have always felt that the people older than me wanted to skip ahead on how much progress had already been made. (I still sometimes feel that way when I talk about sexual harassment in the genre.) They had gotten farther with me than when they were kids, but they wanted to assess it as farther still. And I felt that Madeleine L'Engle wanted us to be so far along in progress that not only would it not be subversive to have a woman be a scientist but that we could have a world where Meg could honestly be rebelling by having a gajillion kids and being really domestic, where that could be genuinely weird and subversive. And it just...wasn't. It just really wasn't. Meg did all the domestic stuff and sometimes did science stuff behind the scenes and her husband got the credit? Yah, that will never be subversive, it turns out. Ever. No matter how many women are scientists. Getting to a world where "and the scientist is a WOMAN!" isn't weird does not make that scenario rebellious.
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 18th, 2012 10:59 pm (UTC)
Yeah, if I think about that for even 10 seconds I know that, about the bunsen burners ... and yet as a kid I never thought about it at all, and my kid self seems to still firmly inform my adult reading of these books.

It did occur to me as I was writing this that Mrs. Murry had an awfully easy time juggling doing science at home--and there are times that you simply cannot stop in the middle of an experiment--with childrearing, even when she was doing both as a single parent. Though with her kids in school ... maybe? Realistically, though, I'd think she'd need some sort of help in the house if she could afford it, but the idea of her being both things was still hugely important to me.

And interesting thoughts, on trying to be radical and failing with Meg. I was surprised, this reading through, how little personality Meg had in Starfish. I think all the stuff about why she made the choices she did--about them being active choices, which makes a huge difference--must have been added in later books. She's not even mentioned as being a brilliant mathematician in Starfish ... it's as if all the thinking about why Meg didn't have a career outside of childrearing didn't really happen until later on.

(Also, why didn't Meg ever carry documents to Lisbon for Calvin? But I digress.)

Complete agreement, on how we want to act like we've made more progress in women's rights and roles in all directions, even today, than we have ... it's like there's been a desire at every step to say "okay, aren't we done now?" rather than face the possibility of more change. When maybe we won't really be done until we're at a point where no one wants to ask why we aren't done already, and why what's already been done isn't enough.
Marissa Lingen[info]mrissa on February 19th, 2012 01:41 pm (UTC)
And from my perspective as an only child, Mrs. Dr. Murry had a ton of kids. Four kids! That's a lot. (Even as an adult, I think, hoo, that's a lot. It's over the line for me from "kids" to "a bunch of kids.") It's enough that for me as a kid, the difference between her and Meg is that Meg didn't use her degree until the kids were older. And even as a kid, I thought, "Why not? Did she feel like her mom ignored them? Why didn't she feel like her dad ignored them?"

Nobody in the book seemed to have noticed that Calvin and Meg had made Meg into Calvin's mom but with more money/better dentistry, that of the two moms they had to choose from, they said, "Oh, column B, please!"
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 19th, 2012 03:09 pm (UTC)
That seemed like a lot of kids to me, too, and I was already one of three. Wonder whether it did at the time.

I did see her as different from Calvin's mom, though, who was actively abusive. Meg seemed genuinely good at parenting. But then, so did her mom, which is why Meg's decision as a response to same made minimal
sense.

Also: Between Swiftly and Arm, I am tired of hearing how beautiful Meg grew up to be, because becoming beautiful is not the point of growing up, however we feel about it as children.

Actually, the whole subject of how to grow precocious spirited girls into genuine-feeling young women in fiction is an interesting one of its own. So often--not jut in L'Engle--it seems they get tamed and normalized, rather than carrying the things that make them interesting and precocious and spirited through.

And I skipped from Starfish right to An Acceptable Time, and while the 16-year-old in the latter is like able enough, and not problematic in the ways of adult Meg, I keep wanting to shout as I read "Where is Poly O'Keefe and why are you walking around with her name?" Because this girl, smart as she is, feels so much more ordinary than the fierce and shining child Poly was.
Marissa Lingen[info]mrissa on February 19th, 2012 04:11 pm (UTC)
True, the lack of abusiveness is veryvery important. But given the choice between "large number of kids + science" and "truly staggering number of kids," they chose the latter.

And yes on the beautiful. Yes. I mean, honestly and in all modesty, I kind of was Meg on that. I was pimply and awkward and had glasses that couldn't be made to stay up because I was growing too quickly for them to fit me properly, and now I am kind of within-cultural-standard for pretty women. (I feel that makes it sound so much more aspirational, and I hope that someday a man will tell me so by moonlight: "My darling, you are so within-cultural-standard.") But it is not the important bit of what I'm doing, and it is not the bit that makes the harder awkward parts of being a kid bearable. And when I look at my godson who may or may not turn out to be cultural-standard good-looking for a boy, that is not the part I want to emphasize for him in bearing it now. Even though he is starting to love these books too.

I think the theory for L'Engle is that we are not only better at the popular beautiful teenage girls at the stuff we do but also at the stuff they do? But opting out of that game is better. I really do think. Seeing the interesting and important things about people who were ugly ducklings and grew up to be ugly ducks who do cool things with proteins or poetry or tomato sauce is far better than going, "And now I am a swaaaaaan, so there!"

And...Mari Ness's Tor.com posts have talked a bit about how the characters in L'Engle don't always seem to be as affected by past events as one might expect. And I think that's one of my favorite things about A Swiftly Tilting Planet, is that that's the one where I feel like they are. I can deal with Meg not physically going along with, because no matter how feminist you are, being that hugely pregnant is just not a physically active time. But the way Meg and Charles Wallace relate, the way they address the possibility of nuclear war, the things they think they can do: these are people who have done great things before.

Whereas in An Acceptable Time, this is not a young woman who has gone from spy adventures to murder mystery adventures to assault and nearly drowning at an international conference, at least I don't feel. Maybe I would feel differently about it if I read it again. But it felt like...I don't know. Like she was treating Poly's spiky sense of being out of place as though it came from nowhere and would smooth down when she grew up enough to see that everyone had troubles? When in fact not everyone has that kind of troubles! Most people really do not! Most people in the freshman dorm do not have stories about the time their father's research got one of their old family friends killed by international corporate espionage whatsits when they were 12. That is not a matter for mellowing.
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 19th, 2012 09:28 pm (UTC)
And even An Acceptable Time acknowledges that there's something problematic about choosing quite so many children, not in general (size of family being a very individual and personal choice), but for being true to Meg-as-we-knew-her--just got to a conversation Polly and Mrs. Murry have about that. Which makes me think that L'Engle saw that this didn't quite make sense for the character she'd created, not at first, but later on.

I think the theory for L'Engle is that we are not only better at the popular beautiful teenage girls at the stuff we do but also at the stuff they do? But opting out of that game is better. I really do think. Seeing the interesting and important things about people who were ugly ducklings and grew up to be ugly ducks who do cool things with proteins or poetry or tomato sauce is far better than going, "And now I am a swaaaaaan, so there!"

This this this this this. Which, to be fair, goes far beyond L'Engle ... the narrative of duckling to swan, for girls, is so common--and so reassuring, in its way--that it's taking some time for us to rethink our narratives about it.

I think one of the things fiction can do is make clear to readers that opting out is an option, if one wants it. (And this particular option out an option no matter where one winds up physically: one be, even can enjoy being, traditionally beautiful, but not be defined by it, or think of it as the primary important thing about oneself.)

And I may need to look for the Tor.com posts on L'Engle ... I remember reading some, but maybe not all of them. I sort of understand how characters can wind up not as affected by the past as would make sense, because there's this problem of making each book stand on its own, so readers can start wherever they want. Which doesn't preclude their personalities being affected by what happened, but maybe makes it easier for that to inadvertently happen. I think sometimes, too, you have to admit to the things that have happened before, even if you're vague. A Poly who was aware that other unsettling things had happened to her, even if they were different; and who knew, living in the L'Engle-verse and having lived her stories, that mystery happens, and so being wary but also curious and ready to face the challenge ... or something like that ... yeah.

And yeah, in Swiftly Tilting, the moment the president calls Mr. Murry and everyone's like "oh, yeah, the president's just calling Dad again," we know this our characters used to unusual things, and that doesn't change. And Meg still feels like Meg in that book, maybe for the last time. (I'm torn about her pregnancy, maybe because we have no real clue how far along she is. At 4 or 5 months she actually could follow Charles Wallace to the starwatching rock, especially knowing the whole world is at stake. At 7 or 8 months, okay, not so much.)

And the thing about the death in Arm of the Starfish: those of us who loved that book were touched deeply by it, so we wanted its affects to linger for Poly too. And like you say: you just don't mellow that sort of thing, or its causes, away. It becomes part of adult you.

And of course, loving Starfish meant loving Poly as she was, too. So we want some hints that that Poly is still around, as well.

Like she was treating Poly's spiky sense of being out of place as though it came from nowhere and would smooth down when she grew up enough to see that everyone had troubles? When in fact not everyone has that kind of troubles! Most people really do not! Most people in the freshman dorm do not have stories about the time their father's research got one of their old family friends killed by international corporate espionage whatsits when they were 12. That is not a matter for mellowing.

Yes! And, you know, she really has had such an unusual life, which is why she was out of place to begin with. I wanted to see her go from being an unusual child to being an unusual adult.

Of course, Mr. Murry's looking awfully usual at the point I've gotten to in Acceptable Time, too, which is also highly disconcerting ...
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 19th, 2012 12:15 am (UTC)
And now I'm wondering something else I ought have wondered ages ago: why does Mrs. Murry do all her work at home while, AFAIK, Mr. Murry seems to do all his in an office away from home, with whatever university or employer (can't remember now--did he work for the government?) he works for? There's a subtle imbalance there, too, in more than one way.
Rush-That-Speaks[info]rushthatspeaks on February 18th, 2012 11:28 pm (UTC)
I really need to reread The Arm of the Starfish, because I read it precisely once, at ten or eleven, and it was so upsetting that I have never read it again. I was too young, I think, and it just felt like a random hurt, that there was no reason, and there was enough of that in my life at the time anyway. But I do need to reread it, because it's the first appearance of Adam Eddington, and my particular L'Engle, the one that has carried me through death and pain and loss, is A Ring of Endless Light.

Which is the book I know that is the best at grief. Well, the fictional book I know. C.S. Lewis's A Grief Observed is right up there. But A Ring of Endless Light is the book I turn to when I fear I'm not letting myself grieve. The bit in it where Vicky's grandfather tells her that it will be her job to tell him when to let go, and then later when he apologizes for that, and says that he has realized it is too large a burden for her and releases her-- that bit recognizes something that happened with every single one of my grandparents, which is that the dying may well place intolerable weights on the living, and it's okay not to be able to do whatever it is.

Vicky's grandfather doesn't even die during the book; the deaths that do happen are unexpected, and the expected one is beyond the scope of the story, which still impresses me deeply on a structural level.

That said, Troubling a Star didn't happen, no such book, after Endless Light Vicky and Adam corresponded and saw each other frequently and then after he got his doctorate and she got her MFA in poetry they got married, that is just how it was and I Have Spoken. *nods firmly*
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 18th, 2012 11:44 pm (UTC)
The Arm of the Starfish is upsetting I think, and its way hard, and I'm not sure I would have been ready for it much before I read it either--it really is more a teen book than a pre-teen one.

I don't reread A Ring of Endless Light often (though I liked it and it's been a touchstone book for many, many friends), but if I remember right, Adam's loss in Starfish informs Light, too, doesn't it?

Agreed on Troubling A Star. Never happened. Never never never. Except ... after many many years apart, it's of course Adam and Polly who meet up again, rekindle their friendship, and eventually get married. :-)

Vicky never spoke to me, somehow. Some day I ought try to work out why. Sometimes I wonder if she was too like me (only I had neither the classical music nor the idyllic family), but Meg was like me, too, and I adored her.

Edited at 2012-02-18 11:44 pm (UTC)
asakiyume: far horizon[info]asakiyume on February 19th, 2012 08:47 pm (UTC)
I feel this way about A Ring of Endless Light as well. I honestly have felt more comforted by that book than by anything else in the world when it comes to death.

asakiyume[info]asakiyume on February 19th, 2012 08:54 pm (UTC)
A Wind in the Door was important for me for lots of reasons. Gosh, so many. One was the concept of love as being not just (or not even) a feeling. Another was for the concept of imagination allowing us to see things truly (because for me that's what kything was like). And, best of all, the notion that you could combat evil by transforming it into something good. We got this a little at the end of A Wrinkle in Time, where it's love that pulls Charles Wallace free, but for me A Wind in the Door went beyond that, because it rehabilitated the evil, as it were. Be! Sea sand and solar system.... And this has stuck with me ever since.

So much harm in this world is done by trying to X people or things. By saying they're bad, they must be locked away, three strikes and you're out, etc. etc. etc. But there are ten thousand things you can be, ten thousand large and small things you can transform into, and what a happy ending that is for something that was nothingness, malignancy, to go from being a force of destruction to being chrysanthemum and cherubim.

As for the female roles, etc., I put a lot of the limitations down to the era in which she was writing. No one's without limitations.
Janni Lee Simner: Spirited Away[info]janni on February 19th, 2012 09:36 pm (UTC)
Argh! All my comments here got eaten when I hit send!

Which were thoughts on:

How Xing is sort of like denying someone's true name, and how important true names are, and how badly we all need to be known as our true selves and how interesting that is.

And about how Swiftly Tilting actually makes evil more of an absolute, which is interesting, even if it also seems to think the bad things don't really have to happen. While Arm of the Starfish seems to have more knowledge of good and evil and people being complicated. ("You can't pick and choose who's going to be the sparrow.")

And how it's kind of interesting to picture Wind and Starfish as, in their way, being thematic companion books, and how I may need to reread Wind next.

Only I'm sure I said it all better the first time! :-)
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